SETI I

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SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » ma 19 jan 2009, 18:33

Maak dit topic aan om Scarabee te helpen die informatie zoekt over Seti I <egypt>

Allereerst een over de: The Military Campaigns of Seti I

Seti I, the second king of Egypt's 19th Dynasty, clearly signaled his ambition to restore Egypt's prestige of the earlier 18th Dynasty when he adopted the title, "Repeater of Birth" for his Horus name, which alluded to an inauguration of a new beginning of Egypt's greatness. He fought a number of campaigns of which three were in Canaan and Syria. Another one was against the Libyans and there seems to have also been a policing action in Nubia. For the first time, perhaps since the reign of Tuthmosisi IV, this pharaoh personally lead the army into Egypt's Asiatic possessions, serving notice that there had been a break with the policies of the Amarna period. In doing so, he laid the foundations for the great contest of arms between his son Ramesses II and the Hittites at Kadesh.

Much of what we know about Seti I's campaigns into Palestine and Syria come from the Exterior North Wall of the Great Hypostyle Hall of the Temple of Amun at Karnak, and from several victory stele discovered at Beth-Shan.

However, this information is sometimes fragmentary, and it should be noted that many scholars disagree, for example, on the extent of his first campaign, as well as the order and events of other military actions under Seti I. In addition, little or no information exists for many of the specific battles that must have taken place. The first campaign is a fine example. According to the Beth Shan Stela, there must have been any number of cities that were attacked, but we have details of only a few. Furthermore, though we may identify a number of place names referred to in various records left to us, others are problematic to say the least.

Seti I's First Campaign into Palestine

We are told of the reason for Seti I's first campaign into Palestine on the exterior North Wall of the Great Hypostyle Hall at Karnak:

"Year 1 of Uhem-mesut [renewal of birth], King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Lord of he two Lands, Menmare, given Life.

"One came to say to his majesty: 'The vanquished Shasu, they plan (rebellion). Their tribal chiefs are gathered together, rising against [?] the Asians of Kharu. Theyu have taken to cursing and quarreling, each of them slaying his neighbor, and they disregard the laws of the palace." The heart of his majesty L.P.H. was glad on account of it. Lo, as for the Good God [Neter-nefer], he rejoices to begin battle, he is delighted to enter into it, his heart is satisfied at seeing blood, he cuts off the heads on the rebellious-hearted, he loves an hour of battle more than a day of rejoicing. His majesty slays them at one time. He leaves not a limb among them, and he that escapes his band as a living captive is carried off to Egypt."

Kharu, sometimes translated as Horu, was defined by Amenhotep II as a specific people, as are the Shasu and the Retenu. The people of Kharu most likely lived in a section of Syria. The name Shasu, according to Donald Redford, literally means "a people who move on foot", which would explain why they have often been referred to as Bedouins in many references. It has been suggested that they lived in the plains of Moab and northern Edom (thought to be southern Jordan)

However, he basically exploited the opportunity provided by reports of a nomadic incursion into the northern Sinai and conflicts between a number of cities in eastern Canaan, using it to assault a various cities in Lebanon.

Map of Seti I's campaign Areas Seti I probably departed from the border fortress of Tjel, modern el-Qantara which is located somewhat south of the Mediterranean Sea on the Suez Canal, with three armies, or divisions consisting of the Armies of Amun, Re and Seth. His forces passed through Raphia (modern el-Arish) and probably captured the city of Gaza in Canaan, which might be a candidate for Pekanan, before heading on to Beth Shan.

We learn from this wall in the Hypostyle hall recording the various scenes of battle at Pekanan that:

"Year 1. King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Menmare (Seti I). The destruction which the mighty sword of the Pharaoh L.P.H. made among the vanquished of the Shasu, from the Fortress of Tharu to Pekanan, when his majesty marched against them like a fierce-eyed lion, making them carcasses in their valleys, overturned in their blood like those that exist not. Everyone that escapes his fingers says: 'His might toward distant countries is the might of his father Amun, who hath assigned to him a victorious valor in the countries'."

surrender and the dying at the fortress of PekananIn this record at Thebes (modern Luxor), Seti I's Tharu (Sile, or Tjaru)

Pekanan, which is depicted on a hill surrounded by trees. This city is also mentioned during the reign of Ramesses III in the Papyrus Harris. Pekanan probably refers simply to Canaan and to his first decisive battle in the region, giving us little insight to the actual location. However, some archaic records seem to point to it being a specific place name.

In the Reliefs on the exterior of the Great Hypostyle Hall at Karnak, Seti I goes into battle at Pekanan protected by the vulture Nekhebet, guardian of the South and the falcon guardian of the north depicted protecting him above his head. Standing in his chariot, Seti fires arrows on the enemy Asiatics, whose formations scatter in disarray.

In the reliefs, a few of the enemy escape and manage to reach the sanctuary of the fortress but they are portrayed in surrendering to the onslaught of pharaoh. Within these depictions, the enemy, called Shasu in the text, are characterized by thin bony faces with very pronounced The Taking of Pekanan: New Version of the Lebanese Chief from the Hypostyle Hall at Karnak wrinkles, a vanishing forehead, long arched noses and a pointed beard. They are dressed in aprons gathered by a belt and a long piece of cloth that they wrap around their chests. There arms mostly consist of battle axes and spears.

However, from Pekanan, Seti I continues on to Beth Shan. At Beth Shan (Beth Shean), he may have split his forces to send some to Hamath and some to Reheb, the same probably as Beth-rehob (2 Sam. 10:6, 8; Judg. 18:28), a place in north of Palestine (Num. 13:21). It has been suggested that Hamath was far to the north of the other recorded battles, but others have suggested that it was just south of Beth Shan. However, some scholars suggest that he split his forces prior to Beth Shan, sending one division to Beth Shan and the others along the coastal road towards Hamath and Yenoam

In Beth Shan a stela was unearthed that records:

"Year 1, 3rd month of the third season, day 10.

Live the Horus: Mighty Bull, Appearing in Thebes, Making the Two Lands to Live; the Two Goddesses: Repeating Births, Mighty of Arm, Repelling the Nine Bows; the Horus of Gold: Repeating Appearances, Mighty of Bows in All Lands; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Lands: Men-maat-Re [Ir]-en-Re; the Son of Re, Lord of Diadems: Seti Mer-ne-Ptah,(full titulary of Seti I) beloved of Re-Har-akhti, the great god. The good god, potent with his arm, heroic and valiant like Montu, rich in captives, knowing (how to) place his hand, alert wherever he is; speaking with his mouth, acting with his hands, valiant leader of his army, valiant warrior in the very heart of the fray, a Bastet terrible in combat, penetrating into a mass of Asiatics and making them prostrate, crushing the princes of Retenu, reaching the (very) ends of (m) him who transgresses against his way. He causes to retreat the princes of Syria (Kharu), all the boastfulness of whose mouth was (so) great. Every foreign country of the ends of the earth, their princes say: "Where shall we go ?" They spend the night giving testimony in his name, saying: "Behold it, behold it? in their hearts. It is the strength of his father Amen that decreed to him valor and victory. On this day one came to speak to his majesty, as follows:

'The wretched foe who is in the town of Hamath is gathering to himself many people, while he is seizing the town of Beth-Shan. Then there will be an alliance with them of Pahel. He does not permit the Prince of Reheb (modern Tel Rehov) to go outside.' Thereupon his majesty sent the first army of Amen, 'Mighty of Bows,' to the town of Hamath, the first army of the Re, 'Plentiful of Valor,' to the town of Beth-Shan, and the first army of Seth, 'Strong of Bows,' to the town of Yanoam. When the space of a day had passed, they were overthrown to the glory of his majesty, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Men-maat-Re; the Son of Re: Seti Mer-ne-Ptah, given life.

The Beth Shan Stela Seti I probably attacked a number of cities during this campaign, perhaps including Acre and Tyre along the coast. It is suggested that he captured Pella upon his return journey. Pella is believed to be one and the same as Pahel.

Besides his military action against Pekanan, we are also provided with some of his heroic actions at Yanoam.

Yanoam is described in archaic text as being Tell el-Na'am in the Sahel el-Ahma southwest of Lake Tiberias, nine kilometers south of Tiberias. However, this is by no means certain. It was probably located on a wooded hill between two lakes on one of the Lebanese watersheds. It was probably on the road to Hatzor and dominated the passage of the River Jordan, but its exact position has so far escaped the efforts of scholars.

Little is actually known of the battle, though in scenes on the exterior walls of the Great Hypostyle Hall at Karnak, Seti I gallops into a swarming mass of the routed enemy consisting of chariots and foot soldiers. Most of the opposing army has been vanquished with arrows and javelins of the king, Seti I. In depictions, Seti I is in the act of smiting two of the enemy in their chariots, whom he has seized by the throat. Other soldiers are hiding behind trees, and have sorrowful faces.

In this campaign, Seti I has also been depicted returning to Egypt with a number of captives, bound together at their throat, wrists or elbows.

Little other evidence exists for Seti I's other actions on this campaign. The records in the Hypostyle Hall at Karnak here, pick up on Seti I's return to Egypt from a fortress on a hill at a location known as Raphia (now Rafah and Rafiah), which is just on the line of the Egypt's modern Sinai territorial holdings. Inscriptions record that he is known here as:

"Guardian King of the Black [Egypt] who causes the chiefs of Kharu [Palestine] to cease every contradiction of their mouths."

The depictions at the Hypostyle Hall at Karnak record one of the only representations we know of the road across the northern Sinai desert. Above and below the horses in these scenes are mentioned the fortified stations established at the waterholes along the army's path home.

Departure from Raphia for the Desert Road and the Bedouin Ambush
Departure from Raphia for the Desert Road and the Bedouin Ambush

Along the route of this return home, Seti I's army is ambushed by Bedouins, and he is forced to turn back against them to engage them in battle. However, the courageous pharaoh again puts these enemies to flight and once more exterminates the pillaging bands. Those that do not die in this battle are depicted as rows of prisoners who's hands and arms are bound and attached to their necks by a cord, the end of which is held by the king.

The pharaoh receives a warm welcome at Tharu, which at the Great Hypostyle hall, is depicted split in half by a canal that is bordered by reds and inhabited by crocodiles. A bridge links the two halves of the city. On the Egyptian side of the city, "prophets, nobles and bureaucrats of the South and North have come to acclaim the return of Neter-nefer on his return from Retenu with a great number of captives."

Departure from Raphia for the Desert Road and the Bedouin Ambush
Return of Seti to the Egyptian Frontier

Here, Retenu simply refers to an area of Palestine.

The Battle with the Kheta

Another scene on the northern, exterior wall of the Great Hypostyle Hall at Karnak records Seti I's archery battle against the Kheta. However, the timing and circumstances of this battle, and in which campaign it took place, is difficult.

Here, Seti I, crowned by a solar disk, stands upon his chariot firing arrows at the routed army of the "vile Kheta", consisting of both men on chariots and foot soldiers. Some of the enemy are also mounted upon unsaddled horses. The enemy's appearance are considerably different from the Shasu, Lebanese and Palestinians depicted elsewhere. They may have originated in the high plateaus of Asia Minor and come down to Syria by way of Taurus.

Apparently this enemy too, was defeated. Seti I returns to Egypt with Khetan captives, together with chariots and "the choicest items their country has to offer".

Though in some other reliefs, these Kheta are represented as being somewhat different from the Hittites that Seti I fought at Kadesh, they are nevertheless thought to be Hittites.

Battling the Libyans

Seti Does Battle with the LibyansFrom reliefs at Karnak, we also find Seti I battling the Libyans, this time under the name of Horthema, avenging Horus. Several scenes depict Seti I attacking Libyans with Harpagon and Javelins. In one scene we find him threatening a Libyan chieftain, recognizable by the two feathers in his headdress. In another scene, he pins a Libyan chieftain to the ground with his feet while restraining another with his hand. In the other hand he brandishes a javelin with which he is is ready to strike the these enemies of Egypt.

In the scene depicting Seti I with his Javelin, two princes stand by his right and left, one of whom is presumed to be the future king, Ramesses II. However, these depictions of the princes had been reworked several times, so their historical presence is questionable.

Again, Seti I returns home victoriously, and is depicted with two rows of captives with bound arms. The king stands in his chariot, which is adorned with the heads of his victims, and we learn from text that:

"He has forced them to cease standing upright on the plains, they are incapable of lifting their bows, they spend their days in caves, hidden like wolves."

Seti I returns with Libyan CaptivesHowever, the battle with the Libyans in Year three of his reign was but a prelude to increasing major problems that were to afflict Egypt's western borders at different times throughout the 19th Dynasty.

Seti I's Battle of Kadesh

There is highly fragmentary evidence that Seti I may have initially attempted to attack the city of Kadesh during one of his earlier excursions into this region of Syria, and he may have had intentions to mount a full scale assault of the city in year three, were it not for the problems that arose on Egypt's Western borders with the Libyans. However, there are some scholars that believe that this earlier campaign to Kadesh was actually the more successful, and that the later campaign in the fourth year lacked success, and itself resulted in the treaty he seems to have arranged with the Hittites Irregardless, in the fourth year of his reign, he did mount a major campaign to retake this former Egyptian vassal state now held by the Hittites.

Less well recorded than his son, Ramesses II's later campaign at Kadesh, Seti I's earlier campaign against this city state may, however, have been more successful. Again, Seti I records this battle on the exterior north wall of the Hypostyle hall in the Temple of Amun at Karnak. Here, situated between two towers of the fortress located on a hill surrounded by various plants is the inscription, "Land of Kadesh, land of Amor".

In this scene we find at the foot of a hill a fleeing ox driver who is begging for mercy. Before an enemy consisting of chariotry and foot soldiers in long robes and daggers in their belts, Seti I's team of horses rears up. Unlike the Kheta, they are bearded and their hair is held by a band or clad in ovoid helmets not unlike those of the Yanoam. However, this battle did involve the Hittites, and the Kheta are generally presumed to have been of that race. The enemy is transfixed by arrows and javelins.

In another scene, the enemy king appears to stand before Seti I on foot, presenting himself before a pylon, and we learn from Seti I that he returned home with considerable booty and many captives. It seems entirely possible that he did capture the city of Kadesh, considering a fragment of a victory stela recovered from that city and bearing Seti I's name. However and despite an apparently resounding victory recorded by Seti I on the walls at Karnak, he seems to have come to an agreement with the Hittite king Muwatallis by which Kadsh and Amurru (the northernmost province of Retenu) were retained by the Hittites (suggested by the annals of Mursilis), in return for the guarantee that they would not interfere with the Egyptian interests in Canaan and Upi. This must have seemed like a satisfactory solution at the time if Seti I's victory was not as resounding as his claims, but for Ramesses II, nothing less then complete control of upper, southern Palestine would suffice. Hence, he fought another battle over Kadesh that would in the end, settle the matter once and for all, in favor of the Hittites.

Bron : http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/setiwar.htm

Morgen ben ik vrij en zal is in mijn boeken duiken en een plattegrond zoeken die in mijn andere Pc staan <egypt>
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

hetepherachet

Re: SETI I

Bericht door hetepherachet » ma 19 jan 2009, 18:48

Seti I heeft net als Horemheb een poging ondernomen om de corruptie binnen voornamelijk de tempels terug te dringen. Ik ben op het moment het Nauri decreet van Seti I aan het vertalen. Deze grote rotsstele uit het in het verre zuiden gelegen Nauri bestaat uit een lange tekst welke voornamelijk een rechterlijke tekst is waarin Seti I een waarschuwing geeft dat aan de tempel van Abydos toegewezen bezittingen in Nubië, zowel land als personeel, niet voor andere doelen mag worden ingezet. Na een lang intro, waarin de koning duidelijk maakt dat het de goden waren die vanaf zijn geboorte of eigenlijk al voor zijn geboorte, bepaald hadden dat hij ooit op de troon plaats mocht nemen. Dit kan gezien worden als een manier om de troon te waarborgen. Immers de dynastie van Seti was nog maar een jonge dynastie. Slechts 1-2 jaar geleden was zijn vader op de troon gekomen. Nog veel vastigheid had de dynastie nog niet. Stellen dat het de wens of zelfs de opdracht van de goden was geweest om jou op de troon te plaatsen geeft wat meer standvastigheid.
Ook wordt in de tekst een duidelijke beschrijving van de tempel van Abydos gegeven.

U bouwde deze tempel als de horizon van de hemel, haar stralen glinsteren in het gezicht. Goud zijn de beelden van de heren van Ta-wer, die afbeeldingen rusten in hun plaats. Hun ware vormen zijn zolas in de tijd van Ra, rijk en edel vermengd in hun barken. ....Het paleis erin is versierd met een grootsheid van Elektrum, het beste van de buitenlanden. Wanneer iemand het ziet is zijn hart in juichen.....de trap erin is een land van zilver, welke glanst als iemand hem bekijkt. Zijn twee grote deuren zijn van cederhout uit Libanon. Hun lichaam is elk van Elektrum, van koper op de achterkant....De grote pylonen zijn van steen uit Ainu. De toegangspoorten zijn van graniet. Hun schoonheid verenigd de hemelstutten, zij mengen met Ra in zijn Horizon....

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scarabee
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door scarabee » ma 19 jan 2009, 19:56

Dank je wel Nofret, het is wel een enorme lange lap, en ook nog in het engels, dus daar moet ik me erg op concentreren met het woordenboek op schoot!
Ik heb er nog over nagedacht, en heb nog een paar vragen:

Weet iemand of paarden in zijn tijd algemeen gebruikt werden? Of misschien alleen in het leger?
De strijdwagens hebben in verschillende periodes wielen met 3 4 of 6 spaken gehad ( dacht ik ) weet iemand hoe de militaire strijdwagens er in zijn tijd uitzagen? Misschien dat ik het ook wel in een van mijn boeken heb staan, zal er ook nog ff naar kijken.
En een landkaart met de situatie uit die tijd en de namen van de omringende landen kan ik in mijn kleine archief niet vinden.
Heb ook al eens in de bieb gekeken, maar daar kwam ik niet veel verder.

Het is overigens niet de bedoeling dat ik allerlei militaire acties ga beschrijven, de hoofdpersoon is een boerenjongen die in het leger terechtkomt, maar er eigenlijk niet geschikt voor is. Er komt dan ook een moment dat hij het soldatenleven vaarwel zegt. Voornamelijk in de eerste helft van het verhaal speelt het leger wel een vrij prominente rol.
Ik ben nog maar nét begonnen, maar het verhaal zit wel al van begin tot eind "ruw" in m'n hoofd. Meestal groeit het onder het schrijven.

Oh ja, Nofret ( mooie vrouw/dame ) ik heb wel een heleboel oude namen opgezocht, waaronder ook Sennefer (wat goede broeder betekent)
Maar ik maak van veel namen afkortingen (heb ik ook in mijn vorige boek gedaan, anders is het niet te lezen) Tenslotte is dat iets van alle tijden. Als je bij ons Catharina heet, word je Kaatje of Rina genoemd. Zelfde met Elizabeth, wordt Els of betty, Frederik/Fred Johannes/Johan/Hans en ga zo maar door, dat kan dus niet zo'n probleem zijn.

Zou wel leuk zijn als jullie allemaal je "steentje" bij zouden dragen!

Ik wacht het af, en als ik weer vragen heb, geef ik een gil! <aaargh>

Bedankt allemaal.
Kijk ook eens op mijn Website: www.renedemila.123website.nl

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » di 20 jan 2009, 12:34

http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » di 20 jan 2009, 12:44

Helmets

Just as in civilian life, Egyptians at war rarely covered their heads, the pharaohs being the exception. They often wore special headgear. The mercenaries continued their own traditions, which, if they were Europeans like the Sherden or Philistines, or Asiatics, generally meant wearing helmets. The Sherden helmets were particularly interesting, with a pair of horns protruding from the helmet on either side of a disk. Nubians on the other hand are never shown helmeted.

The pharaoh is often shown wearing the war helmet, otherwise known as the Blue Crown. This crown was made of cloth or leather but covered with golden discs.


The Hittite chariots Ramesses II fought at the Battle of Kadesh were manned by a driver, an archer and a shield-bearer. This in return required bigger, heavier and therefore slower and less maneuverable chariots. Big shields were heavier, limiting the time they could be carried, the speed with which the soldiers could advance and their field of vision. Protection was paid for with the effectiveness of the attack. Hence, by the New Kingdom, shields became smaller with a tapered lower half.
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nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » di 20 jan 2009, 12:45

During the New Kingdom bronze was sometimes used. Metal plate shields were heavier than leather shields with wooden frames, and did not necessarily afford better protection. At Oxford University a leather covered wooden frame shield and a bronze shield were constructed similar to those used in ancient times and attempts were made to pierce them with both a sword and lance. While the bronze shield was split by the sword and pierced by the spear, the leather shield with its higher elasticity was not penetrated.

The shields was usually held by a handle or a leather strip fastened to the center of the frame. However, shields were also sometimes carried by a strap slung over the shoulder allowing the soldier to use both hands, though this reduced the shield to a passive piece of armor protecting only one side of the body.

The round shield was an import from the Aegean. The Sea Peoples were depicted using them in Egypt, at first against Ramesses III. This form doesn't seem to have had any intrinsic military value over other shields, but was rather a local tradition which spread over much of the eastern The unusual helmet worn by the Sea People (specifically the Sherden) Mediterranean.


Fortresses

During the 19th dynasty a number of Canaan-style stone fortresses were erected along the Egyptian eastern frontier. They were called by their Semitic name magadilu (In Hebrew for instance migdal means tower; cf. the biblical Migdol [Jer. 44:1; 46:14] ).

From representation of these types of fortresses, Naumann has classified them into three chronological groups, from the time of Seti I, Ramesses II and Ramesses III. The earliest group represent fortresses in south Palestine of a uniform, presumably simplified type, characterized by an enclosure with four bastions and one or two doorways. Above the wall rises a second similar but smaller one, perhaps a citadel. The bastion seems to be crowned by a balcony with machicolations, possibly built on corbeling balks. The second group shows more types, varying according to the sites. The fortresses in Palestine are of the former, simple type, with windows, whereas those in North Syria occupied by the Hittites are more complex and characterized by loft towers. Those of the latest group show both simple and complex types used by the Hittites all over Syria and Palestine.

Basically, all of these fortresses may be grouped according to their enclosure walls. They consist of:
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nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » di 20 jan 2009, 12:48

Sometimes broad leather bands covered part of the torso of charioteers, but generally soldiers are depicted without any body protection. Again the pharaohs were, not surprisingly, the exception. Ramesses II fighting as a charioteer was portrayed wearing scale armor with sleeves, covering the whole torso. The scales were bronze, attached through holes to a skirt. His legs were of course protected by the chariot. However, even he is not always shown wearing armor. It might be presumed that other charioteers who could afford the expensive armor might also have worn it. Yet, even pharaohs, though they almost always are depicted wearing the blue crown, did not always wear armor. For example, portrayals of Seti I clearly show him without any body armor in battle.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/defense.htm
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.


hetepherachet

Re: SETI I

Bericht door hetepherachet » di 20 jan 2009, 14:25

Weet iemand of paarden in zijn tijd algemeen gebruikt werden? Of misschien alleen in het leger?


Algemeen gebruik alleen in het leger.
Het paardenras was kleiner dan onze moderne paarden
schofthoogte ong. 150 cm.
De paarden misten een rib, hierdoor waren ze ongeschikt voor het dragen van zwaar bewapende ruiter.
Hierom werden ze ingezet als trekdier.
Zijn wel afb. bekend van paarden die bereden worden door verkenners. Oa. in memphitisch graf van
Horemheb, thans in Turijn. en in de Luxor tempel.
In het aboe Simbel Kadesj bulletin zijn afbeeldingen te zien van licht bewapende ruiters die paarden berijden.
Werd dan op achterheupen gezeten, op deze manier konden de paarden de last wel dragen.

Ik ken geen afbeeldingen van niet militair gebruik van paarden.

De strijdwagens hebben in verschillende periodes wielen met 3 4 of 6 spaken gehad ( dacht ik ) weet iemand hoe de militaire strijdwagens er in zijn tijd uitzagen?


Vroeg 18e dyn. 4 spaken.
Later in 18e dyn. 6 spaken. afb. van oa. Amenhotep II bekend met 6 spaaks wiel.
Ten tijde van Seti I sprake van 6 spaken.
De paarden van de koning hadden namen. Dit zijn de namen bekend van afb. van Seti I:

Groot van kracht, Amon geeft hem de kracht, Amon verleent kracht aan hem, Anath is tevreden, De kracht is in Thebe, Vernieler van de vreemde landen.

Twee lijntekeningen van reliëfs Karnak bijgevoegd, waarop Seti I op strijdwagen staat.
Een is wat groot kreeg ik niet kleiner ingvoegd... Is wel goed op te zien hoe strijdwagen eruit zag. En geeft misschien wel inspiratie bij het schrijven over de chaos van een veldslag.

Hoop dat je er wat aan hebt!


Afbeelding

Afbeelding

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scarabee
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door scarabee » di 20 jan 2009, 21:30

Alletwee heel erg bedankt! <prima>
Ik denk dat ik daar wel dingen van kan gebruiken.
Nogmaals: ik ga niet uitgebreid een strijdwagen van onder tot boven beschrijven, uit ervaring weet ik dat "de lezer" dat al snel overslaat als het te lang en te uitgebreid is. Maar het komt helemaal goed! En jullie begrijpen natuurlijk dat ik probeer om zo min mogelijk fouten te maken. Ik moet die stukken van Nofret in het engels nog allemaal doorspitten, en van die 4 of 6 spaken had ik dus goed onthouden! Wist alleen niet meer in welke tijden ze er 4 of 6 hadden.
Mijn vorige boek speelt in Babylonië, 1700 jr voor Chr. in die tijd waren paarden nog geheel onbekend, alles werd met de ezel gedaan! Maar ja dat moet je wel allemaal uitzoeken, het zou hetzelfde zijn als je hoofdpersoon in de middeleeuwen leeft, en je zou dan z'n mobieltje laten rinkelen.
Wat dat betreft hebben schrijvers die alleen "modern" schrijven het wel véél makkelijker, maar ja ik vind dit nu eenmaal véél leuker!
En dan zo'n veldslag beschrijven, moeilijk maar wel een uitdaging! Reken maar dat ik de bloedklodders en ledematen vrolijk in het rond zal laten vliegen!

Heb even snel een klein stukje gelezen over strijdhelmen, ook interresant! Weet iemand nog meer over soldatenkleding, schilden (ik dacht: houten geraamte, met leer overtrokken) dolken bijlen speren messen enz enz.

Ik hou me weer aanbevolen, bedankt nogmaals <thumbup>
Kijk ook eens op mijn Website: www.renedemila.123website.nl

Nofret
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Lid geworden op: zo 03 apr 2005, 16:20

Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » wo 21 jan 2009, 18:51

Volgens mij staat dat wel in de link die ik heb bijgevoegd <shocked>
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » vr 23 jan 2009, 10:40

Ja reseach is nog een hele klus <lol> <lol> Maar straks weet je er meer van dan wij allemaal bij elkaar <egypt> <egypt>

Hier heb ik nog een boekwerk voor je, over de monumenten van Seti I :

http://books.google.nl/books?id=5UZLNtT ... lt#PPP1,M1

PDF:

http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk2/ta ... Q35116.pdf

Ook intressant voor de rest van ons forum <egypt>
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » vr 23 jan 2009, 11:03

Afbeelding
Cartouche Seti I, Karnak Tempel Complex

Afbeelding
Seti I, Hypostill Hall, Karnak Tempel Complex
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

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Thoetmosis XII
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Lid geworden op: di 29 nov 2005, 12:07

Re: SETI I

Bericht door Thoetmosis XII » vr 23 jan 2009, 18:00

Een heel interessante farao, Sethi I <egypt>
Zowel z'n graftombe als z'n tempel in Abydos behoren tot de mooiste van Egypte, ik heb ooit eens ergens gelezen dat Sethi I veel meer aandacht besteedde aan z'n monumenten dan zijn zoon Ramses II. De monumenten van Sethi I zijn zeer gedetailleerd en van een perfecte kwaliteit. Hoe mooi ook, de tempels en tombes van Ramses II kunnen niet tippen aan die van z'n vader...
Carnarvon: "Can you see anything?", Carter: "Yes, wonderful things..."

hetepherachet

Re: SETI I

Bericht door hetepherachet » vr 23 jan 2009, 18:54

Dat reliëf van Seti I vind ik een van de mooiste tempel reliëfs in heel Egypte. Zo onwijs mooi. Meer van dat soort schoonheid op de binnenkant van de buitenmuren van de hypostylehal, tenminste aan de kant die in opdracht van Seti I is gedecoreerd. Het deel dat Ramses II heeft laten decoreren is ook wel mooi, maar echt van aanzienbaar mindere kwaliteit. Zijn deel was duidelijk een haastklus,net als de meeste van zijn monumenten, waar minder aandacht aan de kwaliteit werd gehecht. Maar dat is typerend voor Ramses II, grote stappen, snel klaar....
Het eindresultaat was waarschijnlijk verbluffender geweest indien het door Seti was afgemaakt.

Overigens heeft Ramses II zelfs delen van het reliëf van zijn vader verwijderd en vervangen door zijn eigen reliëfs.
Ook stelde hij dat hij alleen verantwoordelijk was voor het aanbrengen van de reliëfs.
In het noordelijk deel van de westmuur is over een reliëf van Seti een tekst aangebracht, waarin Amon Ramses toespreekt:

Ik heb u gegeven het ambt van koning van opper en neder egypte....U heeft gemaakt voor mij een groot monument aan de voorkant van mijn tempel, welke ongedecoreerd was gebleven. Ik heb het nooit in hun (eerdere koningen) harten geplaatst om te ondernemen om mijn monument te verfraaien, alleen aan u mijn zoon heb ik er autoriteit over gegeven.

Ramses stelt een ander heeft het bouwwerk neergezet, ik ben verantwoordelijk voor de decoratie.

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » vr 23 jan 2009, 18:57

Inderdaad helemaal mee eens, het is een prachtig relief !! Ramses liet alles erin hakken, dat gaat sneller, maar achteraf bekeken heeft hij toch tijd genoeg gehad <egypt>
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

hetepherachet

Re: SETI I

Bericht door hetepherachet » vr 23 jan 2009, 19:02

Hou zouden monumenten eruit hebben gezien wanneer Seti een vergelijkbare regeerperiode als Ramses had gehad....probeer je voor te stellen...Aboe Simbel in Seti I kwaliteit..... <wow>

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scarabee
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door scarabee » wo 28 jan 2009, 18:33

Hier ben ik weer even...
Heb zojuist het 1e hoofdstuk afgesloten, dus de kop is eraf!
Maar heb nog niets gebruikt i.v.m.het leger. Mijn hoofdpersoon Sennefer -een arme boerenjongen- is geronseld voor Farao's leger. Hij heeft net afscheid genomen van zijn vader en dorpje en is op weg, samen met zijn jeugdvriend naar het trainingskamp dat aan De Nijl ligt. Dus kan ik straks uit jullie opgegeven site's putten!
Heb wel al de gehele batterij (generaal/senior officier/troepen-commandant/kapitein/commandant/officier) op de goede volgorde staan (tenminste wat denken jullie?)

Ik zal jullie op de hoogte houden, ik zoek nu dingen die met de opleiding van soldaten te maken hebben.(Ik weet nog wel iéts zelf) dat er een soort ronddraaiende molen met armen werd gebruikt, daar hingen zandzakken aan, die werd gedraaid, en de soldaten moesten daar tegen vechten. Ze moesten worstelen, ze moesten aan gymnastiek en krachttraining doen.
Leren hoe met een lans/bijl/pijl en boog om te gaan. En man tegen mangevechten oefenen.

Ook werden de nieuw aangekomen jongens die nog zo groen als gras waren, de eerste dagen flink in de maling genomen.
Dat is zo'n beetje wat ik nog weet, dus... als jullie iets te binnen schiet, ik hou me aanbevolen voor jullie suggesties!!!! <yep>
Kijk ook eens op mijn Website: www.renedemila.123website.nl

Nofret
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door Nofret » do 29 jan 2009, 0:07

The ordinary soldier's lot

While there is much evidence of the favours bestowed upon elite troops and officers, assessing the fate of the ordinary soldiers, who did not leave tombs decorated with scenes from their lives or descriptions of royal bounty they received, is more difficult. The depictions showing Amenemhab and Horemheb distributing not just bread and vegetables but also wine, cakes and meat to their soldiers may have been an attempt to improve these officers' chances in the other world rather than everyday practice.
The foot soldiers probably had little to show for their pains, when they left the army. But sometimes they were taken care of. Granting land to veterans was a time-honoured practice, though the land was not always rent free [3] and the allotment was often motivated by political considerations: under the Ptolemies former soldiers were often settled in places which had been centres of rebellion against the regime.

En nog een link:

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/soldier.htm
http://ancientegyptianmonuments.blogspot.nl/



nn ms.i sA.w -- No one is born wise.

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scarabee
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Re: SETI I

Bericht door scarabee » do 29 jan 2009, 11:40

Oké thanks! krijg wel de rambam van dat engels lezen, er zitten woorden tussen waar ik nog nóóóóit van gehoord heb!
Maar zoonlief zit af en toe wat te vertalen, maar die zegt dat het een vreemde schrijfmanier is. We komen er wel uit! <fainting>
Kijk ook eens op mijn Website: www.renedemila.123website.nl

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